Chile Forum

Tom,

I understand what you are saying Tom. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I think I need to point out something here just in case I may have come across otherwise in my previous posts...I am not contra Pinochet and for Allende or vice versa. I am against state sanctioned murder, whoever is in power.

The rock bottom issue for me is what was right to do by God. That is it for me. If state sanctioned murder was and is not right by Him then that is all I need to know to make what I consider to be a valid judgment. That the murder of many persons while the country was ruled by Pinochet was wrong. Plain and simple.

No positive spin on the murders that occurred...no positive outcome for Chile from those murders...no amount of human rationalizing that some murders were unavoidable...can justify a wrong before God.

Short of me coming to the point of seeing the Bible (which I look to to help me understand what God's perspective is) say that what was done was justified or an unavoidable "evil" I simply cannot condone what happened or excuse it away. No matter what good may have seemed to come from the murders.

It is my understanding that God himself would not have approved of those murders and would condemn them in no uncertain terms.

I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one Tom since it seems, if I am not mistaken, that you and I have very different views on faith in God.

Please do not mistake my views as arrogance Tom. If I state opinions on this issue emphatically and in a way that makes it seem that I know what I am talking about when I have hardly even been to Chile, it is not arrogance of heart that causes me to speak that way. It is a reliance on the unchanging nature of what the Bible calls right and what the Bible calls wrong. Something that by God's grace, I do know something about.

Totally aside from what I am saying above about the basis for my opinion...is it that difficult to admit that state sanctioned murder under Pinochet's rule was wrong? Completely wrong. And that it should not have happened at all.

I am not talking about killing terrorists or murderers or the like where death may in some cases be justified...even before God. Rather I am talking about the killings of reporters, sympathizers, persons who on ideological grounds opposed military intervention in Chile's politics, and were otherwise "soft targets" (persons whose principal crime seems to have been disagreement with the existing rule of Pinochet).

Is there any rationale that can justify or make less wrong the killing of such persons? Can and should a state just up and kill those who oppose it ideologically?

As I see it, either the killing was wrong or it was right. Either it was justified or it was not. Either a state can and should kill those who oppose it on idealogical grounds or not. No grey there. It's a black and white issue or should be in my opinion

As I said Tom we may just have to agree to disagree but that is my further take on what you said for what it's worth. By the way I do appreciate the relatively tactful manner in which you are addressing what you may consider to be "faults" in my opinions. I appreciate that very much.

Carlos

Yea, is perfect to have diverse views on the same thing. And you guessed correctly: I am not too inclined to religion and probably this explain the diferent views, anyway, your opinion is respetable. "Agree to desagree" is a nice expresion

tombrad2 wrote:. . . . I refrain to cristize actions in Israel, palestinian territories or balkans . . . .

It ill becomes me as a guest (even if I were a naturalized Chilean, I suspect) to criticize the host; but questioning to gain knowledge is different. So, although I believe, as Carlos does, that killing of the innocent is wrong, I intend my remarks in this thread chiefly as a means to elicit discussion by those who know more about the matter than I do.

You, Tomás, lived there and then, and as a Chilean. Further, you've considered and reconsidered your own convictions. You deserve much credit for the willingness to change, and I am grateful to you for writing about what you've learned. Thank you.

Yes RWS, mine are just personal opinions develoed along time and -I hope- evolved as many other chileans from those years. I guess Carlos opinion is as valid as mine and even many chileans stand the same point as Carlos and doesnt worth to discuss too much on that. Obviously I cannot accept as a good thing the murder of inocent people as Tucapel Jimenez, Carlos Prats and some other political assesination.

Which is very hard to me to stand is the hypocresy from many chilean people who lived those years and changed their personal story, inventing himself horror stpries that I know well they are false. Many politicians are also rewrited the history with a manicurated version who excuses they own coward and vile behaivor on those years.

I am convinced that many men from army has been unfairly put in jail, besides some real murders (there was those also), all anmestys and lots of money in compensation (over 3 billion dollars) has been for former terrorists and all punishment for military, many of those having nothing to do with murders or just obeyng orders in estado de guerra (to dissobey them implied the death penality)

Military seldom claims too loud, but is very dangerous to play with so unfair prosecution, because in the future nobody can assure that a typical "latin american gorila" take charge on chilean army and take power by the force in a REAL gorila rule, politicians love to pull the tail the lion, guessing he is sleeping and that was exactly what happened with military in the 70s, they wake up and taked charge for a very long time. I fear for some "gorila resentido" deicdes take the goverment in the future and -if happen- it will be the hypocrital and stupid piliticians fault.

tombrad2 wrote:. . . . Military seldom claims too loud, but is very dangerous to play with so unfair prosecution, because in the future nobody can assure that a typical "latin american gorila" take charge on chilean army and take power by the force in a REAL gorila rule, politicians love to pull the tail the lion, guessing he is sleeping . . . . it will be the hypocrital and stupid piliticians fault.

Very insightful.

I found a very interesting article that supports the need for the military coup very well I think.

If anyone is interested here is the link...
http://www.josepinera.com/pag/pag_tex_nuncamas_en.htm

In short although Allende was elected democratically...what he was doing while President violated the Constitution and law of the land with respect to his attempts to bring about a socialist revolution, against the will of the Chilean people if need be - thus the need for a forceful overthrow of his government.

I do not know who the articles author is or much of anything of the web site hosting it but I found the article to be quite good in justifying the need for the coup.

I have not thought much about whether the coup was necessary or not until now but, after having read the article above (and some others) I have come to the conclusion that the coup was indeed necessary.

What I have always been against and still am is the state sanctioned unjust and inhuman murders that occurred after the coup.

I have read more accounts of murders that occurred, some being just briefs of legal trials against the perpetrators, and let me tell you...the persons involved in committing the murders were monsters. I mean that in every sense of the word. No less than the Gestapo were monsters.

Inhuman, lacking in conscience, justifying deeds that are on par with what the Nazi Gestapo did to it's prisoners. Sick monsters.

One torturer who died in prison apparently went to his death maintaining that what he did was right. That one could not rightly call him a scoundrel for among other things...he was just acting under orders. That if he had to do it all over again he would torture victims more efficiently than he had. He died without cooperating to either disclose the location of other mass graves or implicating others involved in the killings. Classic case of self-justification no different than many Nazi's exhibited when brought to account for their evil.

I read of one man in the Chilean secret police at the time who imported nerve agents and then used them on prisoners who became his guinea pigs. Of the Caravan of Death where military officers were entrusted by Pinochet with going around and killing prisoners who had done nothing to deserve death. One father, whose son was among those killed was in turn killed himself when he came in to the local station to inquire as to his son's welfare. I have read of torture, of unspeakable cruelty in the killings themselves where some were matcheted before being shot, of mass graves, of bodies not being turned over to the families because of the shame felt by those in authority at the way the prisoners were killed. Of rapes and electric shock treatments and many other such things.

And to think that the Chilean military gave itself amnesty for such things done up to 1978 such that relatives of those killed cannot bring to trial those responsible in Chile (though one has apparently been convicted in a civil case in the U.S. that fined him for his role in the Caravan of Death)!

As I said when I started this thread....it makes me sick! More disgusted than ever that these kinds of things occurred in Chile. And even more that to this day efforts to find who was killed and to prosecute those responsible continue to be hindered by some of the very organizations and government entities that should, by all that is right, be at the forefront of coming clean and punishing those responsible. I think of the Chilean armed forces as a prime example of one such entity that seems committed to continuing to cover it's own butt.

Sure...progress...some progress has been made in the direction of righting the wrongs committed. And that is good. But such progress pales in comparison to the brutality and inhumanity of the acts committed. Not enough progress has been made. Not nearly enough.

Last I read, President Bachelet was making an effort to abolish the amnesty law that gives many immunity from prosecution. I hope her effort will succeed.

It's not just the state sanctioned killings that happened under Pinochet that make me sick. The socialist goon squads that went around and killed people before Pinochet and during the first years after the coup were no better.

All this has led me to realize that not all is right with Chile. That there is a great deal going on under the surface that is not so pretty. Downright nasty actually. That in many respects Chile is not such a great country to live in and that much of what happened under both the Allende and Pinochet governments reveal a Chile that is quite frankly worse than anything I have ever heard of happening in the U.S. (at least with respect to wholesale murderous acts being sanctioned by the state) - a country that some Chileans and others seem very fond of putting down. It's something to think about.

I don't know what it is about Chile where in it's relatively recent history, killing those who oppose you on ideological grounds seems par for the course. That some such killing is thought of as..well..almost necessary to maintain order. Chile is undoubtedly less brutal than most Latin American countries in that regard but like the others in the same hemisphere it seems to have that same tendency in it's collective psyche to use violence as a means to an end. I honestly don't know why that is.

Carlos

I'm hesitant to reply to your heartfelt post, Carlos; but I do wish to add what you already know: that what happened under Pinochet could happen anywhere, anytime. Even in the United States, the first major nation constructed upon a philosophical bedrock of humanism (pace, I intend this in a sense of generous yet accurate understanding of and sympathy for human nature), there have been horrors (though not mass terrorism by the state).

Chile today is a changed place. I've never spoken with a Chilean whom I know to have been complicit in the wrongs committed in the 1970s and '80s, but I know more than a few Chileans who've genuinely changed their attitudes from that period -- and for the better.

I continue to think that, just as exposing a cut in our flesh to fresh air and sunlight is the best way to allow it to heal, a thorough and public investigation of the wrongs of the period from Allende's election to Pinochet's retirement may be the best way to allow resolution of the warring paradoxes deep within many Chilean souls. But I could be mistaken.

I, as many other chileans, thik that doesn[ t even worth to think or discuss on that matter, It was long time ago and anyone has their own opinion and experience to stand it, it would be silly keep discussing so as to get angry today for things what happened in Guerra del Pacifico or in the american secession war, "lo que pasó, pasó" and anyone has the perfect rigth to stand their opinion on that matter, but we in Chile are pretty tired to keep talking about the same

Will the simple act of ignoring the past cause its effects to disappear, Tomás, or simply to fester? I ask in all sincerity, though doubtfully (remembering, for example, that one of my grandmothers, descended from a line of returned Tories, was still quietly angered by the severe mistreatment, never apologized for, of ancestors nearly two centuries earlier).

Nobody ignore the past here in Chile, but most of chileans stop to discuss about that. Anyone has an opinion and, in the big numbers this reflects in the political split of chilean opinion, more or less half and half.

Those of us who endorsed or justify the military rule vote to Alianza por Chile
Those who reject all the military rule vote to Concertacion

Is that so simple, well, there are many in-between political opinions: many of us aprobe in the big numbers and botton line the military but reject the murders and abuses. Others reject the military but recognizes that Allende rule was a disaster and milittary was unavoidable, and so, ad infinitum.

But I have clear that most of chileans are not intersted at all to discuss the matter. Thos who discuss are the directly involved, hoping to obtain some indenmizacion money or such. Human rigths is not an important issue in politics since 7 or more years.

Thanks, Tomás. I'll keep your words in mind.

Yeah, in my 7 years here, I have never seen even the Chileans I know get into a discussion among themselves. It only trickles out in one line statements and comments usually a pro/anti Pinochet/Allende cheer or such.

I thought I would see a fight one time in the bar I met my pareja when one table of chilenos overheard a disparaging remark about Pinochet at another table and the Pinochet supporter got up and pointedly addressed the commenter with "and who saved Chile?". The question was repeated again but the commenter said nothing, ignored him and the situation quickly deescalated and life went on.