Chile Forum

In my feelings in the 73 we actually WAS into a civil war, not so bloody because there was not much arms and both left and rigth was afraid from military reaction. Nobody knew in 1972 what side military will support. Aditionally the "real" rigth in Chile was very small those years, just a few tycoons, most of them was very social democrat inclined. Most of Allende oposition in Chile was from people from center, angry against the -also minoritary leftist- decided to take the power by force, if necesary.

Nowadays all people who was engaged in politic has turn into hypocrital and deny their real behavior, both rigth and leftists has rewriting the story because they are ashamed from all they did this time. Short after the coup and during many years, all opositords to Allende (some 60% of chileans) was very happy with repression and endorsed entusiatically the murders and tortures, calling as "necesary" to "clean" the country. People from left was also radicalized, waiting for support from Cuba to establish the first full comunist regime in America del Sur. Now all of them deny and blame to unexistent "exalted minorities", there was not such minorities, we was all engaged in a war logic to kill the contrary.

The now so-called "defensores de la democracia" endorsed very entusiastically the fascism and comunism dictatorship in the 70s, is a very hypocrital game to hide a shameful past. There was a huve "vacio de poder" and it was only matter of time that military filled, the only uncertainly was if they will incline balance to left or rigth. General Carlos Prats was decided to endorse a comunist regime, but when he realized that he was completly alone in his choice, he resigned. Later, after coup, in one of the most stupid actions from head of DINA General Contreras, Prats was assesinated.

I really doubt that CIA-USA has been some influence in the coup against Allende, the endorsement to opositors was very mild, however I think they infiltrate deeply the Gobierno Militar and DINA after the coup, they was decissive to put Pinochet out of power.

Nowaday we can see an exact picture of how was Chile in the Unidad Popular years with Bolivias Evo Morales, It is almost exactly the same process, there are a lot of identical situations

tombrad2 wrote:. . . . I really doubt that CIA-USA has been some influence in the coup against Allende, the endorsement to opositors was very mild, however I think they infiltrate deeply the Gobierno Militar and DINA after the coup, they was decissive to put Pinochet out of power.

Amazingly insightful, Tomás, from one who (I assume) has not read the fairly extensive materials now declassified.

Nowaday we can see an exact picture of how was Chile in the Unidad Popular years with Bolivias Evo Morales, It is almost exactly the same process, there are a lot of identical situations

Which has influenced both my sympathy for the poorer Bolivians and my hope that Chile will be able to prevent illegal immigration and resultant societal unrest.

Since there is a dearth of English language materials supporting a more rounded view of what really happened in Chile during that time, I though I'd pass along an article written by noted columnist Paul Craig Roberts who is coauthor of the recent book printed in Spanish by the Universidad Nacional Andrés Bello.

Chile: Two Visions, The Allende-Pinochet Era
by Karen Araujo and Paul Craig Roberts

LINK describing the book:
http://www.policyofliberty.net/HPdA/RobertsAraujo.html

Unfortunately, the English version still has yet to be printed.

The article:

June 8, 2005
If Pinochet Is Guilty, so Is Bush
by Paul Craig Roberts

http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=6254
_____________________________

PCR is my favorite USA columnist. A supply side policy maker under Reagan, he is now one the most vocal critics of what the neocons have done to the USA socially, politically, economically and to her standing in the world.

-eeuunikkeiexpat

Hi RWS, I am very supportive to inmigration from Peru and Bolivia, even ilegal, note that in Chile there are not a welfare net as in USA, so everyone who come in to the country has to earn their daily bread or die in starving!, peruvian and bolivian inmigrants are hard workers and supply many of task than chilean dont willing to do (sounds familiar? .-) ) I dislike all those claims "they come to thieve us job posts", that is rubbish, chilean must learn to compete and specialize, I think that peruvian inmigration has enriched a lot the chilean society and contributed to improve relations between both countries.

Living in a city whith a huge amount of peruvians/bolivians coming and going we in Arica are not afraid of inmigration, provided the politician dont start with welfare and stupid regulations who left us out of competition. Without peruvians/bolivian workers Arica agriculture simply would not exist.

In my opinio Chile may open borders for inmigration from everywere, we have lot of space.

Thanks for the links, EE.UU. The book looks especially interesting. Though I never was foolhardy enough to think Allende much better than a rigid "conformatarian" (one who through force or other coercion obliges other people to comply with his own desires), it's good to be reminded that Pinochet's own group may reasonably be seen to have been comparatively selfless.

Was Roosevelt a war criminal for bombing Dresden & Hamburg? Was Truman a war criminal for bombing Nagasaki & Hiroshima? Just curious to see where/if you draw the line.

Also, how does Israel treat its own people? Now let's compare Iraq under Hussein or Afganistan - how did/do they treat their own people? How about Palestine - what happens to moderates who want peace & disagree with Hamas or old Arafat? How are dissidents treated in Israel? Just comparing moralities, seeing as how columnist seems to view US/Israel as inferior, or at best equal to Palestine et al.

Columnist's tone alone is rather hysterical (and I mean that literally, not as merely "funny"), I'll bet his PC monitor screen is simply covered with spittle....yuck. I'm of course sending this email from a super-secret location b/c freedom is obviously dead in Bush's Amerika. Uh-oh, Homeland Security (admittedly a stupid name with unfortunate connotations in German) goons are at the door, gotta go!

John Hyre

Jajajaja

And the truth may set you free.

I really don't give a damn what happens up North anymore. Better for the blood pressure and mental health or maybe it's the locally grown organic food, ample vino and pisco and absence of US TV, newspapers, mags, talkradio, etc.

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:. . . . I really don't give a damn what happens up North anymore. . . .

"Ah, but we know where your family are . . . ."

JHyre wrote:. . . . Homeland Security (admittedly a stupid name with unfortunate connotations in German) . . . .

Nothing wrong with Heimatland, and enough time has passed that even Sicherheit probably wouldn't trouble many young folk today (well, the concept, maybe, but not the connotations).

True RWS, but there is only so much you can do to open their eyes. Ultimately your life is your own and you have to proceed from there. My first circle outside of Chile starts with Mom and then the rest of the extended family.

Overall, the majority are in much better shape than the average American household to weather a long downturn.

And who knows, I may be the lifeline that will make an important difference when they do see the light.

As I'm in a similar situation, EE.UU., I empathize entirely; and I share your hope for the future.

Thanks very much ya all for all the input. It's given me a lot to think about and I don't say that just because it seems like the right thing to say...I mean that.

Thanks especially for those who posted the longer posts detailing more of their thoughts on this issue.

John...incidentally just so you know I think you and I think very much alike with regard to all things U.S. Your thoughtful response was especially valuable in helping me see some aspects of the other side of the story.

Carlos

admin wrote:Regarding Don el puelche's credentials on the issue, Carlos I think you need to spend some time searching through the forum archives. Puelche has written more about that time than anyone else on the forum. I believe there is likely a couple hundred postings by P on the subject, perhaps sufficient to fill a short history book.

Here is one I found with a quick search:
http://www.allchile.net/chileforum/viewtopic.php?t=306
There are at least 2 or 3 other big threads by P on the topic I can even remember, and perhaps more. I think he just does not want to retype everything. You got some reading to do before you can have proper debate with P.

Charles...I don't really understand what you are saying...or rather it makes no sense to me. I have never questioned el puelche's credentials with regard to the times of Allende or Pinochet. He has given me nothing to question in so far as the only thing he has done on this thread is throw insults and derogatory comments out without contributing anything meaningful to the discussion.

May I suggest that it's not a matter of me doing some reading before I can have a proper debate with el puelche but rather that it is a matter of his learning not to make derogatory comments and the like to those who he might disagree with?

Carlos

Carlos,

I kindof figured, which is part of the reason I'd posted here & elsewhere. I'm thinking we are a minority here. Of course, wouldn't be any fun if everyone agreed all the time....

RWS,

Most people today have little grasp of history, which precludes them from finding many things troubling, I doubt we differ much on that.

EE...expat,

I would not want to interfere with worthy pursuits, such as enjoying the fermented grape, on that we can agree.

Hyre

JHyre wrote:. . . . RWS,

Most people today have little grasp of history, which precludes them from finding many things troubling, I doubt we differ much on that. . . .

Thanks, JH. We agree on this (and, in significant measure, on our understanding of September 11, 1973). Ironically, I left a career in history thinking that I could have more effect on my society for the better in another field (working as a lawyer for the poor); now I'm preparing to leave this field for the former, even though I at times feel as though I were indeed a voice crying in the wilderness.