Chile Forum

Hi all, just got in from watching "IOUSA" at the local theatre. First impression: why are the audience comprised of 100% Anglos? The theatre was 45% full at best. I sat through about 80 minutes of numbers, pie charts and interviews, all of which served to reinforce my opinion that the US is in terminal decline. I thoroughly recommend this production to anyone who's uneasy about the US and is unsure of which step to take next.
I've waited until the end to answer my own question posed a few lines up; (this theatre is in an area populated by 65% Latinos).
The answer is: nobody but Anglos CARES about the outcome. Once the regs get stricter and the taxes get high enough,
Mexico will seem like the land of the free. Or maybe Chile if we are forward thinkers.....

The military part is a consideration of course and military spending makes up (I don't retain numbers well) about 15% of the deficit? The biggies seems to be Social spending, Medicare/aid. The subject was handled in an entertaining and fairly balanced manner, lots of face time for Warren Buffett. Greenspan was skewered on several occasions and the Fed's bias toward Wall St was laid bare for the audience. The site is here: http://www.iousathemovie.com/about/
and it's worth a look IMO even if you are up to speed on the topic.

admin wrote:So, my point is that all these doom and gloom economist that talk about foreign powers playing games with U.S. debt, forget that it is not just debt. It is a Global peace tax.

I thought that was an excellent point. Economics are *so* intertwined and subject to unintended consequences. Right or wrong, it's the reality. It's easy to focus on one aspect of economics, and make an argument it is "wrong" according to our sense of [individual] fiscal responsibility. But, when the alternatives are explored, they don't look so pretty.

This reminds me of something I've been contemplating lately: The question of whether a tangible, fixed, commodity is a better "currency" than a socially-engineered currency. On the one hand, Chile's UF makes sense. But, on the other hand, if it forces contracted purchasers into default, and the seller into the costly process of foreclosure and auction, was it really beneficial to either party?

Another example is how Europe's inflation is different than the US. Because of the dominance of labor unions who negotiate contracts that tie wages to inflation. The result is that (contractual, negotiated) wage increases contribute to the spiral of inflation in Europe. On the one hand, it seems to make sense that a worker's wages should be *at least* tied to inflation (devalution of the currency). And yet, that "absolute" (inflexible) view contributes to inflation.

Mark

Ok wow I read through this whole thread well 80% of it anyway some I just couldn't slosh through. Lots of things jump out at me but it would take a week to respond to all the old comments. So I will start something new.

Why is the US deliberately provoking Russia?
I bit of history. From what I have been able to gather the US and Israel (those in charge of the Georgian military are Israeli's)armed Georgia and have many hundreds of 'advisers' in the country. The president was elected with help from the CIA and is US educated. The election was contested as faulty but they were to powerful to do anything about. Several opponents are dead or locked up.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia broke away almost immediately after Georgia left the USSR so their claim to these ethnically different lands is contestable. They broke away because Georgia refused to honor its agreement giving them a measure of autonomy. So they do have a history of being somewhat autonomous and were formerly parts of other states. Georgia immediately tried to wipe them out and killed thousands. The Russians were brought in as peace keepers at all parties request when things started getting nasty on both sides(Yes Georgia asked for them to come in).

Ok Now this month. Georgia claims a land mine killed a few people and said it was a break in the ceasefire (of course we have no idea who put the land mine there). A few days later Georgian snipers started killing people. When that didn't bring a response they moved in and started shelling South Ossetias only city specifically targeting the hospital, University and several small villages along with well the whole city. Its said that 3/4 of the city is ruined.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South ... peace_plan

One correspondent of Pervy kanal, witnessing live the Georgian incursion on Tskhinvali recounts that the heavy artillery had fired at the quarters with civilians, at hospitals and on the Russian peacekeepers, which stunningly are there on Georgian request[163], the Georgian army had not used any precise weapons and had not aimed at the military targets, but fired at random, trying to obliterate Tskhinvali and all of its inhabitants from the Earth. According to him their motivation was: Tskhinvali is the only city in south Ossetia, if it ceases to exists, so will the republic too.[164]



Russia was hesitant to move in and waited 12 hours after the shelling started till their was a great outcry in its country to stop the ethnic cleansing before they brought in the military.

Immediately their is an obviously preplanned propaganda campaign to make Russia look like the aggressor. Anything that doesn't make Russia look bad is kept from all major media in the US and little comes out of Europe. But its a completely different story in the rest of the world.



We find out later that US 'advisers' were among the invaders and rumor has it some were killed but even Russia is keeping the dead soldiers quiet.

From http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandid ... 5520080829

"We know there were a lot of U.S. advisers (in Georgia)... but instructors, teachers and personnel for military weapons should be on firing ranges and in the teaching centers -- but where were they? They were in the zone of military operations."

"And that pushes one to the conclusion that the leadership of the United States knew about the action that was being prepared and moreover probably took part in it," Putin said.




So why would the US attack peacekeeping forces and civilians in a nowhere republic like South Ossetia? their are lots of possibilities. But it was Vickie's posted link about the history of the Neocons that looks like the best answer. They are afraid of losing power if they don't have a demon to hunt. Since their weren't any guys bad enough they decided to make one. Or at least make it look like their was one.

http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares

But in my honest opinion I think the Neocons are being played for the fools they are. I think the reason Europe is at least giving lip service to them is because they want the US and Russia to go at it and leave them the premier world power so they can take over the remnants of both empires like the US took over after WW2.

Why do you think they did it?

John

Little John wrote:. . . . So why would the US attack peacekeeping forces and civilians in a nowhere republic like South Ossetia? their are lots of possibilities. . . .

Among them, oil. Georgia is of importance in relation to pipelines which would otherwise circumvent Russian control. As long as Americans buy plastics and drive gasoline-powered automobiles and lawnmowers, petroleum will remain the single most coveted resource on or under the earth.

MikieO wrote:. . . . nobody but Anglos CARES about the outcome. . . .

I've come to think that, in general (for there are individual exceptions), recent immigrants, legal or illegal, and their children are in the States only for material advantage. There is little or no allegiance to the country save to assure continued material gain, no shared values save greed. Sad, but I daily see men and women who've been here thirty or forty years leaving because they've made their money and now want to go to lower-cost areas to enjoy it: no sense of community here at all: despite acquired citizenship, they did not become Americans.

RWS wrote:There is little or no allegiance to the country save to assure continued material gain, no shared values save greed.

I thought that's the desireable goal of a so-called "free market."

Mark

MarkF wrote:

RWS wrote:There is little or no allegiance to the country save to assure continued material gain, no shared values save greed.

I thought that's the desireable goal of a so-called "free market."

Mark

Free movement of human capital, indeed.

jalundberg wrote:Free movement of human capital, indeed.

Exactly. I've never understood the complaint that immigrants to the US are there only for a profit motive, as long-term citizens (supposedly "patriotic") shop at Walmart at the expense of US jobs, or turn a blind eye as tech jobs are offshored to China and India just because "it's a free market, and anything else would be 'socialist'".

God bless libertarianism </sarcasm>

Mark

RWS wrote:

Little John wrote:. . . . So why would the US attack peacekeeping forces and civilians in a nowhere republic like South Ossetia? their are lots of possibilities. . . .

Among them, oil. Georgia is of importance in relation to pipelines which would otherwise circumvent Russian control. As long as Americans buy plastics and drive gasoline-powered automobiles and lawnmowers, petroleum will remain the single most coveted resource on or under the earth.

True this is at least part of it. But the main pipeline is more along the southern part of Georgia however I read one article that speculated they wanted another pipeline going northeast through South Ossetia. But they would have to take a good chunck of Russia to do that not just South Ossetia. If thats the case things could get really nasty.

Even Putin has speculated that it was to help uncle McPain in the election but I cant see that as anything other than a timing and secondary goal.

John

I daily see men and women who've been here thirty or forty years leaving because they've made their money and now want to go to lower-cost areas to enjoy it

I believe that's covered under the phrase "the pursuit of happiness"
Further, as taxes are set to increase and welfare rolls swell, why wait for what one has spent a lifetime accumulating to be appropriated?

A pretty detailed lesson on where we are, where we're going and what might happen on the way, I'm halfway through and thought I'd share.
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse

An email that somehow ended up in my spam folder wrote:
Dear American: I need to ask you to support an urgent secret business relationship with a transfer of funds of great magnitude.

I am Ministry of the Treasury of the Republic of America. My country has had crisis that has caused the need for large transfer of funds of 800 billion dollars US. If you would assist me in this transfer, it would be most profitable to you.

I am working with Mr. Phil Gram, lobbyist for UBS, who will be my replacement as Ministry of the Treasury in January. As a Senator, you may know him as the leader of the American banking deregulation movement in the 1990s. This transactin is 100% safe.

This is a matter of great urgency. We need a blank check. We need the funds as quickly as possible. We cannot directly transfer these funds in the names of our close friends because we are constantly under surveillance. My family lawyer advised me that I should look for a reliable and trustworthy person who will act as a next of kin so the funds can be transferred.

Please reply with all of your bank account, IRA and college fund account numbers and those of your children and grandchildren to wallstreetbailout@treasury.gov so that we may transfer your commission for this transaction. After I receive that information, I will respond with detailed information about safeguards that will be used to protect the funds.

Yours Faithfully Minister of Treasury Paulson

The state of the states is....deep doo-doo, and it doesn't really matter who wins in the November election. It's clear that the American people are going to be paying for electing Bush twice for a long, long time. The Nation magazine makes the point that

" Even without knowing the specifics of Paulson's staggering rescue plan, you can kiss the environment, preschool education and health insurance for all goodbye."(The Mother of All Bailouts, by Nicholas von Hoffman)

I have been aware for several years that the US was in decline. As a teacher, it's obvious that the skills are degrading amongst the young, and too many people have taken on too much debt. The country as a whole has taken on too much debt. We have abused our position of power in the world. I knew that there would be a price to pay, but I thought the overall situation would degrade slowly. Silly me.

I think I understand the basic mechanics of the economic meltdown the we are witnessing. The part I don't get is that it seems that these really smart guys who are raping the US economy are also killing off their own golden goose. That doesn't seem so smart....an example of avarice overcoming logic and morality.