Chile Forum

Gene Gindling wrote:I place the time as 1947 to 1949. I also feel that there were more than one faction, but all are eventually battling each other.

Hi Gene. I'd like to hear you expound on this...I find from the 50's...and am working it forward to now. But I have a hard time working it back to an earlier time, and I'd be really interested to hear what, who, in the late 40's you find had a root in the State of the States idea we've all developed into this discussion.

I'm looking for a link between Strauss (1950's) and Rove and his rise to power riding on the greed of others' and in between, a connection with all this and Nixon taking us off the Gold Standard in 72, 73? Why did he do this? What did he SAY? It seems that is when we became seriously addicted to oil, or were we already, and that's why?

One other thought...I don't know if anyone here who lives in the US realizes how oppressive it feels there now. The general feeling (to me) is almost suffocating for the general working stiff. It didn't occur to me until I had lived abroad for a time, and returned home. Other words come to me, apathetic for lack of hope, hopeless for the fear, beaten for lack of avenues of redress. I'd be hard-pressed to have the kind of discussion we have going here, in the US. People either don't care, are afraid to sit down and have this discussion, are too busy trying to work and save their home, looking for work, paying for health care, or simply don't think anything will make a difference, ever...they just keep slugging along watching it all happen. Sad, really. Two-thirds of my family would ask me to leave their house (politely, or unpolitely) for discussing 99% of this thread. It would be viewed as unpatriotic, unrealistic, unwise, ill-advised, and subversive. Imagine that.

Going back in 2002 for visits, I found myself sitting moot as I watched in restaurants and get togethers, as people cheered the war, sneered anyone who didn't cheer with them. Herd mentality. And while people seemed congealed in the blissful soup of patriotism, they didn't see how isolated they had become...every man for himself. It seems now that we have watched all of the events unfold, we are still unable to look back and hold anyone accountable for the egregious events that were criminally perpetrated upon us.

Vicki, I was posted to London for a few months early in 1980, at the beginning of Margaret Thatcher's service as prime minister. The mood there and then closely resembled the mood here (here in the northeastern States, at least) and now: dispirited resignation, mixed with a determination to slog through. A major difference: the irrepressible American spirit, naïve and childlike though it may be, expects bright times tomorrow and a savior before -- in the present instance, often embodied as Barack Obama. The fact that he neither will nor can deliver on the vastly inflated expectations doesn't seem to dissuade the far from sober populace.

Of course, the American mood could be compared to that prevailing in other places, at other times. One might be minded of Germany in 1944 . . . .

As for criminal misdeeds: I remain unconvinced. I still think ignorance and hubris a more likely explanation. The cure for such incompetence in government is to find a government that lacks such power, for rulers in all places and at all times tend to be comparatively ignorant and arrogant (even if masterfully disguised); that's much of what makes Winston Churchill and a handful of others so extraordinary.

Not to beat the tin drum too long, but I'll add that, yes, I do think that transgression of Constitutional restraints was deliberate. Even removal of the notorious Rumsfeld and Gonzalez hasn't reversed this, but hubris may come into play in that.

For those who missed it in the other thread:

SURGEON GENERALS WARNING: Readying and Responding to the Chile forum has been proven to raise blood pressure, cause hair to prematurely go grey, lead to increased drinking, thoughts of selling your home, quiting your job, and moving to a foreign country, and generally engaging in social anti-social behavior. The results are a 100% terminal case of stress release once you have followed the advice found here.

Hey we are not crazy:

From bloomberg:

More Americans Dissatisfied Over Country's Direction, NYT Says

By Joseph Galante

April 3 (Bloomberg) -- More than 80 percent of Americans are dissatisfied with the direction of the country, the most since the New York Times/CBS News poll began asking the question in the early 1990s, the New York Times reported.

Eighty-one percent of 1,368 respondents, who were surveyed by telephone between March 28 and April 2, said ``things have pretty seriously gotten off on the wrong track,'' the Times reported. Sixty-nine percent gave that response last year and 35 percent in 2002, according to the report.

Seventy-eight percent of those surveyed said the country is worse off than five years ago, while just 4 percent said it was better off, the Times said. The economy and job market top people's list of concerns compared with the Iraq War and terrorism last year, the newspaper said.

Typically, dissatisfaction rises in the months and years following an economic downturn, not at the beginning, the newspaper said. The survey's margin of sampling error was plus or minus 3 percentage points, the Times said.

Careful. The next step is when they direct their anger and blame us for the problems as most are now trapped and will have to deal with the fallout there.

I expect any tax advantages some of the well to do USA expats now enjoy will be phased out and currency controls will make it difficult to remove big chunks of wealth still in the States.

Well, at least from my own business perspective, those sorts of surveys are like free advertising on the front page of the New York times and every media source that picks it up. You can't buy that sort of publicity. Bush and associates are like the World's best free PR department. I am afraid a competent administration might kill my business.

Vicky,

Even though the United nations was officially organized in Oct 1945, the first substantial piece of work was the partitioning of Palestine in 1947.

In 1947 you also had the following things occur:
Truman Doctrine
Marshall Plan
Taft-Hartley Act

These were some major milestones in creating a one world financial system along with the united nations.

In 1948 you come across the creation of Israel and the Confederation of American States.

In 1949 you have the formation of Nato.

While all of these things seem somewhat unrelated, they were foundational in forming the basis of the one world order that we see controlling the governments of today. This order is primarily financial and not in a form that is easilly recognized.

There are also several factions still competing for the eventual control which is usually referred as the "end game".

It is interesting to see that we still have a few economically independant "renegade" countries. Iran, Syria and Venesuala come to mind. They are usually identified here as "rouge states" and denigrated by false accusations in the propaganda of our time.

Largly, I see several competing entities which are trying to be the leaders of this one world creation. Maybe they are only competing for a better position within the system. I am really not quite clear about that and am not sure anyone is.

For anyone who dosen't care to become corrupt, it matters little. Countries like Chile unfortunatly become little else than pawns in the greater game. When the ability to conceal the system becomes impossible, then we are truly all in danger wherever we may be.

I live in a real rural area. In fact, the old people here tell me that the great depression didn't affect them much because people didn't have anything anyway. Their life went on much as before. It appears that our current situation is different because the rulers are afraid of someone telling the crowd that the emperor has no clothes. They may call us paranoid, but it is them who are truly paranoid and probably for good reason.

My personal reasons to look for somewhere else is because the business opportunities seem better. Here you need a bribe (spelled permit) for anything you attempt. The paperwork is incredible. If the state cares to extort (spelled fine) money, they have plenty of cards to play. I am really tired of the government taking so much of my earnings for many of the causes that they support. I don't mind paying my fair share for services which I enjoy, but when 30% of the population works for the government or is on the dole (not counting retired people) then I really feel that my opportunities are limited.

We also face so much red tape and expense for environmental reasons and other fluff that it is near impossible to survive as a business here. With the bailouts, depreciation of the currency and increase in all forms of overhead I feel that this situation will only get worse. Already the states and counties are running out of money. As the economy withers, the tax levels will fall creating more problems for them. I detect additional tax hikes, fines and fees already being contemplated. It never dawns on them to reduce expenses it seems.

On the bright side.....I may have my other property sold which will free up the money to get started elsewhere. I am fortunate enough to live in an area where land and property prices weren't driven to extreme levels. Now my decision is whether to continue here, or sell out completely and do something else. I could just retire and dabble (sounds better all the time). My current business is sucessful and established with a proven record. I could probably get my price within a short time and ??????

It truly is a remarkable time to be alive. Somewhat uncomfortable, but interesting nontheless.

I hope that as you consider the timeframe and what we see now, that you may find the early foundations of our current state of affairs. If you need more, PM or ask.
Gene

On the subject of moving cash from the UK, I notice that the "new" 50 pound note has so much foil in it, any appreciable amount taken out of the country is sure to interest the scanner thieves. Oh, I have to assume that this is to protect us during air travel?

Thanks Gene for the thoughtful answer. Quite a while back I'd read a bit about the UN, NATO and much of what you outlined in your post. To be honest, back then I thought it the angry rants of "Ruby Ridge" fanatics. But living outside the US, seeing news that wasn't filtered for the benefit of "whoever". and looking at this stuff for myself, I see things differently now. I'm not looking to be convinced, but looking to find out for myself, and as I've had time to look at documents, and reconstruct the timeline, well, doesn't sound so kooky after all.

As for country folks and the impact of financial disasters, I see that here, and other places in Latin America. Specifically in rural areas. To the average urbanite in the US, the people here would seem poor. No industry to speak of, no place to "shop" and no money to buy anything with. Yet, I've never seen people happier, or prouder, and they wouldn't have it any other way.

I hope you figure out what you want to do...and congratulations on being ABLE to have the opportunity to consider it. So many people are finding themselves in a position where they have NO choices.

RWS - I am one of those people who feel encouraged and moved when I hear Obama speak. I find myself hoping for something better for the US, and believing he can make a difference. I hope you are wrong, and if you are, wouldn't that be great? And if I'm wrong, I'm just one of millions of suckers and that -for the country- would be a really terrible thing. By the way, I'm curious if you've followed the Rove vs. Gov. Siegelman of Alabama saga?

Okay, I'm done!

Vicki

I, too, find Obama a moving (when I was younger, I might have said "inspiring") speaker, Vicki. His recent speach on racisim gave hope -- until analysed: no definite remedy proposed, even though (I believe) one or more exist. I've a good friend who's working closely with him and hope to quiz her thoroughly before the general election (I've long said, possibly mistakenly, that the party bosses wouldn't allow Hilary Clinton to be nominated in '08), but at present my instinctual reaction after learning more about his actual record is that he's just another politician, albeit an unusually articulate and persuasive one.

No, I've not followed Rove v. Siegelman. Seemingly paradoxically, I've followed political and quasi-political matters less since leaving history and entering law (the resolution of the apparent paradox lies in the much greater time at the disposal of the historian, the greater minute anxiety in the life of the lawyer).

Do we really understand what superdelegates are, and how people are nominated? Not according to this article:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iUzN ... wD8VRD8DG0

It seems some superdelegates are really super duper delegates and have the power to name new superdelegates, thus a fully undemocratic process is a lot less democratic than it looks. I am not even sure why we are waisting so much public money on the whole voting process in the first place.

Me: Oh yippy! Obama for President! Yippeeeeee! I'm gonna register to vote again after all these years, I'm so excited, I'm all revved up to be a part of the process!
Reality Whispers in my ear: ppssssstttt....garble garble....psssst!
Me: What?
Reality Whispers in my ear: ppssssstttt....garble garble....psssst!
Me: Huh?
Reality Whispers in my ear: ppssssstttt....garble garble....psssst!
Me: Really? Well crap! Nevermind then!

I agree completely with you Charles. Sometimes I get caught up in the theatrics of the whole thing. Like watching a really heart-wrenching FILM, finding myself crying, then feeling stupid because it's JUST A FICTIONAL FILM!

Vicki
(I forgot that the m-word for moving pictures is verboten!)

What? We're not to write "m-o-v-i-e"? What in the world could be offensive in using that word? (Okay, okay, to strict grammarians, perhaps; but to ordinary folks like us-all?) Honestly, at times I wonder whether I'm speaking a different language -- and my native language is, of course, English.

RWS, try writing m-o-v-i-e in a normal sentence without the hypens and post. See what happens.

Vicki