Chile Forum

I've long predicted that the US economy will soon be similar to that of Japan, fragile and vulnerable to the slightest economic breeze. When our govt allowed the exodus of the industrial base together with granting most favored trading status to an erstwhile enemy, the die was cast.
What I didn't foresee was the looting of the country's equity through the housing bubble and ME war(s). A series of public multiple hangings is called for in DC and New York.

RWS wrote:...we are too many, we human beings, and we consume too much, too foolishly.

Hmmm..I don't think we are too many RWS. This world can support far more people than it presently has. The problem as I see it is that through human greed, as you mentioned, we hoard things at the expense of our fellow man. Through wars that are unjust and wrong (I am thinking of African wars here) people end up starving for lack of food products being available.

The problem in this world is the nature of man. There is something flawed in man that causes him to not love his neighbor as himself.

In the end I believe that we, the human race, cause our own misery.

Incidentally I have not lived in the States for seven years so things may have changed drastically since I last lived there but some of what has been said so far seems a bit...well...overblown to me. People walking around in fear? Malls being empty because of economic woes? Americans as a people choosing to ignore problems until the last minute when it is too late to do much of anything about anything?

I know of many Americans who even now are showing great courage and have great hope for the future. Newt Gingrich is rallying many to believe that America can once again become a country of "can do".

America as a country I think has lost it's way a bit but there is a great big, giant, middle America that you never hear about much. People who I would be proud to be associated with as an American.

Don't get me wrong there is a great deal about the U.S. that I don't like but I think some of what has been said about it on this thread...is...as I said...a bit overblown. Not intentionally mind you but a bit overblown nevertheless from my perspective.

I have lived in Florida and Michigan most of my life and have travelled to many different States.

Carlos

Hi Chuck..

Chuck J 3.0 wrote:...I saw a lot of denial going on, it's amazing how people can BS themselves when they don't want to look at bad things happening.

May I ask what it was that you saw people being in denial about? The war in Iraq being bad or that Bush lied (neither of which I subscribe to)?

You're not the only one who has said the American people are in denial but I have yet to hear any concrete explanation of what it is that people are in denial about. The evidence is purely...I think the term is...anecdotal so far and very subjective.

Heck...I've been accused of being in denial myself. But the truth is that I wasn't in denial...it's just that the person who accused me of such could not wrap their head around the fact that I could actually believe something different than them regarding the topic of conversation.

Are the American people really in denial? Or is saying that just a convenient way to justify our own beliefs about what is being denied?

On another note...I don't know how many times I have heard Canadians say that Bush lied to justify the Iraq war but when push comes to shove and I have called them on it in terms of asking for what proof they have, the only "proof" I have ever been given was no better than that they just didn't trust him because of his crooked smile LOL.

Carlos

Charles,

I like you, your site & you are obviously quite knowledgeable about Chile. Unfortunately, your view of the US is rather surreal.

We are in or headed for a recession. The economy is slowing, at least by US standards (our slow economy is known as "normal" in places like Western Europe). As is natural, people are somewhat worried in that respect. I do not think Americans are unique on that count. I do think that the US has done a remarkable job with its economy from about 1948 to 1968 and from 1980 to present day....long, strong booms, and good management of inevitable recessions with soft landings all around. Maybe this time is the exception, in which case it would be the exception that proves the rule. I remember growing up in a steel-town in the 70's & 80's.....I remember all the predictions that Japan would own us economically & the USSR militarily/ideologically. Didn't happen. I remember the Carter malaise speech – a loser’s speech, made for losers, and therefore rejected by Americans. People who bet against the US generally lose, particularly over the long term. We have flaws to be sure, but our strengths are also tremendous. Of course, a rabidly anti-Bush/anti-American/anti-Whatever worldview tends to skew ones perceptions.

Commercialism/Materialism/Consumerism are grossly under-rated by the anti-American crowd. Let’s take one teeny little corner of the mall that you are so quick to disdain – appliances. Let’s agree that time is life. You lose a little time, you lose a little life. A little time lost is a little murder, a little life gone. That which gives time gives life. How much time & life do washing machines, stoves & refrigerators give? You would know better than I, as many Chileans lack those things that Americans take for granted – and many Chileans would give their eye-teeth to have them. Now multiply my one little corner of the mall by the whole kit & caboodle of American consumer paradise. Those things give back life and make it more pleasant, more enriching (for example, compare Barnes & Noble selection and price to ALL the bookstores in Chile….think of all the joy and knowledge denied Chileans for lacking one simple store). You are far to quick to dismiss the meaning and value of American material prosperity. For all the talk by academics, Europeans & other detractors of US, most people want those things and will risk much to have it – ask any Mexican you happen to catch on the Rio Grande. Yes, materialism can be overdone, for example, by abandoning the upbringing of your children to go from a nice GM car to that even nicer BMW SUV….most non-Americans would be happy to confront that choice.

Engineered poverty? Oh, puh-lease. First, that which passes for “poverty” in the US is called “middle class” in many other places, Chile included…..cars, Reeboks, Nintendos, an excess of food (of poor quality by choice, and we are all pro-choice, aren’t we?). Second, poverty in the US is overstated in that stats do not include things like $3,000 - $6,000 Earned Income Tax Credit which is cash payment to poor for taxes never paid (ironically called a “refundable credit’, who says government hasn’t a sense of humor), Section 8 Housing Vouchers (govt. paid rent), Medicaid, value of emergency room services paid for by others (that’s why I pay $50 for aspirin). Third, classes are VERY mobile in US – those in the bottom 20% today will likely not be tomorrow, unlike Chile, where economic class is pretty much hereditary….you want to see fear & despondency, talk to Chilean lower class who has almost NO chance of advancing upwards. To the extent that you see fear in US, it’s that progress up the ladder might be slowed. On a purchasing power basis, Americans can buy more with an hour of work than just about anywhere else in the world. I could go on, but have to go make some money….but I would truly to see you back up idea that poverty in the US (such as it is) is engineered….by You Know Who, no doubt.

It is one thing to love Chile on its many merits. It is quite another to manufacture or grossly exaggerate issues with US to brighten the contrast. We have our issues, primarily diseases of prosperity (e.g., obesity, ability to be ignorant, basic decadence), but I do not think your description reflects the true state of affairs.

John Hyre

Carlos,

I am curious: For those Canadians or others you have talked to about the US & Pres. Bush, what do you tell them were the reasons that the US got involved in Iraq? Thanks.

Chuck J 3.0 wrote:. . . . Chile to me is a like a USA in miniature. . . .

My impression is that, in much, Chile resembles the pre-Vietnamese-War United States. I hope that it can avoid the worst of the mistakes that our country made.

I'm probably going back to the US in April. I don't want to, I wish I could stay. . . . Part of the reason I came to Chile was to avoid the financial meltdown and inevitable social dislocation in the US but ironically I'll be there when it happens. Bummer. I'd like to come back to Chile someday but I dunno if it's gonna happen. . . .

I'm saddened to read that! Why are you leaving, Chuck?

Observations of imminent American collapse certainly are overblown, I think. I live in Connecticut, a state long and badly affected by economic downturns, populated overwhelmingly by immigrants and descendants of immigrants who came to the States not for its freedoms (let alone to participate in and benefit the broader society) but simply to make more money: materialism attracted them and (they think, but at a deeper level don't feel) still satisfies them: such people work for others or, at times, for themselves chiefly for the income, not out of pride in or love of their work. Yet even here, a state in which the spirit of most people is so far removed from the historic soul of America, there's no panic, no half-empty mall -- yet.

I do not think it's quite yet too late to turn the country around, but I doubt that it will. I'm reminded that people feast and frolic even as the waters rise. It's just human nature.

All I can say is that I'm personally happier to be here today than in the States.

I pondered the question of "what if I had stayed instead during the past seven years?" many nights over a glass or two (or three) of cheap but great quality Chilean beverages in the past year and always come to the exact same conclusion. I am soooo glad I did not stay or I'd be angry, unhappy, full of despair though probably still making an above average USA salary.

Really, it would have just not been worth it for my sake and fair to those around me.

Plus, I donated my "decent job" to someone else and Chile gets almost all my yearly living expenses. How much more win-win can it get?

I am truly living the phrase from the DOI of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" and have discovered for myself that Americanism (no offense meant to the Ibero-American word definition purists) really is a state of mind and not something confined to or defined by a territory or government.

I say there are 1000s of sites to go to that support super pro-USA viewpoints and only a handful that allow real-life established expats to comfortably voice their views and observations and in the case of expats in Chile, maybe only two.

Balance? HA!!

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:All I can say is that I'm personally happier to be here today than in the States. . . .

I am truly living the phrase from the DOI of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" and have discovered for myself that Americanism (no offense meant to the Ibero-American word definition purists) really is a state of mind and not something confined to or defined by a territory or government.

This is key. In the end, probably the best reason to move.

I say there are 1000s of sites to go to that support super pro-USA viewpoints and only a handful that allow real-life established expats to comfortably voice their views and observations and in the case of expats in Chile, maybe only two. . . .

'Mind sharing that other website with us (I've not found it)?

RWS wrote: ...'Mind sharing that other website with us (I've not found it)?

I meant the ChileGringos Yahoo group. But even that list is now dominated by a loudmouth USA expat gringo. And I believe there are some ex-USA military and ex-USA police types lurking who will give you a piece of their mind if you give them an opening.

All the good folks from the past seem to have virtually disappeared but good info still comes through sporadically (even from the self-important types) as a search of their archives will reveal.

Thanks, EE.UU. Perhaps I'll drop by ChileGringos (unpleasant name, no?) to read, not to post.

I came to the conclusion that my own unhappiness, disillusion and anger is guiding me in a direction that I've never thought to be possible and to persue happiness I need to come to a full circle.
I'm not longer in denial as many, even today continue to be.I have only a PHD in Life and Wisdom, with tons of energy and intelligence plus the knowledge of 3 languages and an absolute creative mind and ambition, however because of my lack of a title, connections and as a female I was never able to make decent wages....so much for the Land of Opportunities.
I have seen jobs disappeared over the years leaving families in total dismay.I have seen greed beyond belief, politicians like termites eating this country bit by bit and the white house is for sale once again as it is every 4 years.
A great deal of regular folks without a profession are living a facade, a Disneyland life with their BIG houses, concerned about remodeling their BIG kitchens they never use (because they eat take out in their BIG SUV's) and paying BIG bucks for a Starbuck coffee cup with a peewee paycheck,(some however making BIG bucks, but peezing it away) in debts up to their elbows ( watch Suzi Orman CNBC and hear their anguish and desperation..LIVE!) with little to no retirement.
I have been in the swing economy this country has suffered through the years and I hung on to it with all my strength waving the american flag all the way.....I don't any longer, I have lost my respect and I have opened my fist dropping the flag forever. Why hang on to it anyway, when they'll be giving away the citizenship to illegal aliens, so called amnesty without any respect to those of us that worked and obeyed the laws and waited our turn. Now I definitely know for sure I need to make a change of scenery.
I'm broken hearted, dissapointed, angry and sad, not because I'm leaving but because I wasted an entire life with an illusion.It's time to turn a new page.

Coincidently I just received the book "The Mole People" which talks about a subsociety in the tunnels beneath NYC, the homeless and undesirable.(for many) I remember watching a documentary about it and my jaw dropped in disbelief!!
I recently watched "Sicko" by Michael Moore and myself and partner ended up crying our eyes out. I also have in my list a documentary about "Homelessness in America" and some more reading such as "War in the Middle Class" "Independents Day, awakening the american spirit" by Lou Dobbs whom I watch every single night.
As I said earlier, many are living a facade trying to sweep the uglyness under the carpet forgetting that in this country hunger exists in greater proportions than ever and is very visible, soup kitchens in many cities trying to help the community are overwhelmed. Greater percentage of the homeless are the veterans from Viet Nam, the Gulf War and now Irak.Isn't that unforgivable? Shame, shame, shame!
And Katrina? what a disgrace!! Is there anything to be proud of? I don't think so!

Gloria wrote:Is there anything to be proud of?

Yes. That in this country was made the first serious, sustained attempt in any major land in recorded history of an ordinary people to govern themselves, free of imposed aristocracies and ecclesiastical hierarchies. And it succeeded. For awhile.

The housing value - finance collapse is just another in a series of tulip bulb manias to affect the US economy. Not too long ago it was the dot bomb crash. The economy will be affected for a few years, some people will lose big, others will muddle along until the next boom.

Housing problems are small compared to the government debt problem, but that won't raise its head for another five or ten years.